Isabella Higgins: Well, good evening, everyone, and thanks so much for joining us at this wonderful event with Sue-Anne Hunter. We've titled the event tonight Our Kids Deserve Better, and we're going to get into all of that later. 

First of all, though, I'd like to pay my respects to the traditional custodians of the land on which we meet tonight, the Bidjigal people. I always like to say they were the original storytellers of this country. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and extend that respect to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who might be in the room. 

First, a little about myself. My name is Isabella Higgins. I'm the host of ABC's AM program, and also very proudly part of a very large Torres Strait Islander family. 

One of the things I'm proudest of, actually, is that I've reported from all over the world for the ABC—Ukraine, Israel, Africa, the US and Europe—but the thing I'm most proud of is the work I did as the National Indigenous Affairs Correspondent, reporting on my community and my people for four years. 

It was a role that brought enormous pride and privilege, but also great challenge, pressure and a unique kind of pain. Sometimes that meant being exposed to suffering and trauma, and being reminded, time and time again, to be lifted by our strength and survival. 

Now, that's more than enough about me. Thank you—that's very generous. 

Our guest tonight also knows all too well the challenge of working for and with your people. The challenge of navigating Lore and Western law. 

It is, of course, Sue-Anne Hunter, Australia's first National Commissioner for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children. 

(Applause) 

You've worked in a number of high-profile roles before this, including as a Commissioner with the Yoorrook Justice Commission, and in a prominent role at SNAICC – National Voice for our Children. You trained as a social worker, but you've really become recognised as a force, a leader, when it comes to issues affecting Aboriginal families and children. 

You've achieved so much, but perhaps now you've taken on what might be one of the biggest challenges yet in this inaugural role as Commissioner. Tonight we're going to unpack your vision for the role and also have a discussion about how that plays out in the current national landscape because, of course, your work comes at a time following the unsuccessful Voice referendum, the winding back of treaty and truth-telling processes in some states, and also a really tough budget environment for governments and households. 

In recent weeks we've also been reminded of the worst kind of tragedy that can happen to our children with the passing of Kumanjayi Little in the Northern Territory. No-one would say you're taking on an easy role, but it seems like you're more than up for the challenge. 

Please join me in welcoming Sue-Anne Hunter. 

(Applause) 

We're going to jump into the question-and-answer part of the evening. 

My first question for you, Commissioner, is this: I've sort of rattled off a whole bunch of your professional achievements as an adult, but who was Sue-Anne Hunter when she was a child? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Well, what wasn't she like? 

I think I was very shy. Like, painfully shy. I know it's hard to believe now, but I didn't have many friends at school. But I came from a big family—a family of six kids—so I had lots of friends, and I learnt a lot from my brothers and sisters. 

I found school really difficult. Looking back, I think if I got diagnosed today, I'd probably have dyslexia. I think I learnt how to overcome that in the years that followed. But yeah, I was very shy, and then probably in my teenage years I started becoming a bit more outgoing. 

I also learnt how to navigate racism at a very young age. Most of the schools I went to, we were the only Aboriginal family there. Being white-passing, you still copped the racism. I remember being suspended because I was very rude to someone who made comments about my dad and the colour of his skin. 

I think anyone who's been through that understands how those moments shape you. They set you up for life. I realised it wasn't really about hitting back. It was about standing in your own power. I learnt that at a really young age. Then I had younger sisters, and I felt like I had to do that for them as well. 

I think that's what set me up. You shouldn't have to be set up like that. I don't think anybody should. But I think that's the point where I realised I didn't want the next generation to have to go through what we did. 

I didn't really like school, so I left around Year 10 and went to work. I did lots of different jobs, but it wasn't until I got a bit older and went to work at VACCA as a caseworker—because I'd decided I wanted to work for our people—that everything changed. 

Before then, mob was just your family. That's who you hung out with. Working at VACCA really opened my eyes. I was in my early twenties, and that's when I thought, this is it. This is what I need to do. That's what led me to study social work. 

Isabella Higgins: What sort of work were you doing there? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Case work. 

Isabella Higgins:  A really difficult job. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Yeah. There were no requirements then—I sound really old. There were no formal qualification requirements, so I could just do case work with really young children who'd been removed from their families. 

I remember that first week so vividly. I remember going home and crying because it was just... overwhelming. I thought this isn't about me. This is about them. How do I do this better? 

I also had a really significant disclosure in my first week, and that will stay with me forever. I still follow that family, and whenever I see them, I always think back to that time. 

I'll never forget going home and thinking, Oh God... I need to learn how to do this better. 

That's what got me into social work. 

Isabella Higgins: Because we see you now, and we see you fighting for our people, but it can be really heavy sometimes. You've developed a unique kind of skill to keep going, I imagine. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Yeah. I think I'm good at compartmentalising things in my life. I also have a daughter who doesn't let me be a big shot. "Mum, you're home. You're my mum now." I think it's the people you surround yourself with. When you've got like-minded people around you, it's okay to be yourself. That's probably the most important thing. 

I also see a therapist... who sees therapists. I think we should be much more open about that. I actually think it's a strength to be able to say what you don't know or how you're feeling. That's really important to me. 

Isabella Higgins: Black families are pretty good at bringing you right back down to earth, aren't they? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: They are. 

Isabella Higgins: Can you talk us through how you got from VACCA to where you are now? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Look, I pinch myself every day when I think about where I'm at. I try not to think about the enormity of it because I think I'd drown in that. I'm really curious. I always want to know. I always want to learn. I don't think I'll ever stop learning. I also like people to change my mind. I like having a debate rather than an argument because it helps me understand other people's points of view. I especially love doing that with kids. I'll say, "I don't see it like that. Tell me how you see it." And they love telling you you're wrong. That's probably the part of the job I'm going to love the most. 

I worked my way through case work. Then I managed caseworkers, moved into family support and family violence, and moved around a lot within VACCA. I was there for more than 20 years. Then I set up the first Aboriginal therapeutic team and ran that for quite a while. 

Eventually I felt it was time to leave, which was really hard because when you're in a Black organisation, they're your family. They give you the love and support you need, and the families you work alongside become your family too. Even though I was in management, I always made sure I still had a family I was working with because that kept me grounded. Somewhere along the way I also studied family therapy and did bits of training. I loved therapy training—taking mainstream therapeutic approaches, ripping them apart, using culture as the foundation, and then building them back up into what we needed. 

Then I went to SNAICC and did some work there. After that I moved into consultancy, but I discovered pretty quickly that I'm not very good at working for myself. I'm really bad at it because the admin... I can't. It was just too much. People would say, "We want to pay you, but we don't have an invoice." I'd say, "Oh... I'll send it." I was just so bad. 

Isabella Higgins: The tax too. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Oh, it's just all of it. When you're working in an organisation, someone else does that. It's really good—you don't even have to think about it. 

So I went back into an organisation, but I was inundated with work. There was just so much of it. I remember one case where I worked as a consultant. I reviewed the case and managed to get a child back home. I felt like I almost had more power working outside the system than I did inside it, and I really struggled with that. 

Then I went to SNAICC, and while I was there, I was trying to figure out what came next. Someone said to me, "You could apply to become the Director of the Therapeutic Team." Then someone else said, "You could even become a commissioner." I remember thinking, "What? Me? A commissioner?" That felt like a real challenge. 

So, I put my hat in the ring. I thought if I didn't get the commissioner role, I could always apply for the Director position instead. It was a really public process because it was Victoria's first truth-telling commission—the Yoorrook Justice Commission. There were around 60 applicants, and I remember looking around thinking, "Oh God... there's no way." Then it was narrowed down to 20. 

I had my interview online because we were still sort of in and out of COVID. I'll never forget getting the phone call. I was in some dodgy hotel in Adelaide, about to deliver some training, watching a spider crawl across my pillow. That's how dodgy it was. I just remember thinking, "What am I doing?" Then I got the phone call. 

I cried. Literally cried. I just kept thinking, "How did I get here?" But I couldn't think too much about the enormity of it because I just had to get on with the work. Those four years weren't really a job. They were an honour. I had the privilege of listening to people's truths—sitting with Aunties, Uncles, grandparents and kids, in prisons, hotel rooms, around kitchen tables, out on Country in freezing weather, or in lounge rooms where the heater was blasting and you felt like you were melting. Wherever people wanted to tell their story, that's where we went. 

Then there was the responsibility of holding the state to account. I used to joke that I felt like a Black Judge Judy. One of my favourite parts of the role was asking questions while knowing I had to honour our people. How do you ask those questions in a way that people will actually listen, while holding respect and dignity? The people appearing before us had to answer to history, but they also had to answer for what continues to happen today. 

When we handed down the final report, I honestly didn't think I'd apply for this role. I thought there were so many people who could probably do it better than I could. 

Isabella Higgins: So, what changed your mind? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think the work changed me. I thought, I know... I know stuff. I know stuff. Setting up the Commission taught me so much. I learnt about legislation, what needed to happen, and how to hold culture and law—LAW—in both hands at the same time. 

Isabella Higgins: And they can be quite different. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Right. So how do you do that? I thought that part of it I could do really well. I know our kids. I've worked with them. I've sat with them. I've done case work with them. I've fought for justice for our kids in youth detention and out-of-home care. I thought, well... let's go for it. 

Isabella Higgins: And here you are. You've got the job. Not an easy one. A huge in-tray when you come into a role like this. We see the Closing the Gap statistics every year. We know our children often don't get the best start in life, whether you look at health, education, housing or being removed from their homes. When you come into a job this big, with so many things you could work on, how do you determine what your priorities are? And what are they? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Number one was getting this Office set up because nothing was in place. We're becoming a statutory body. There was no policy, so this is the first time they've appointed a commissioner before the policy and legislation were in place. I worked closely with the Department of Social Services and the public servants on both the policy and the legislation. 

It wasn't an easy task on either side. They wanted to protect government—which I understand—and I wanted to protect our children. A lot of it was questioning how things would actually work on the ground. What does that look like? What do you mean? I don't understand that. I asked lots of questions, and eventually they understood why I kept asking them. 

By the end of the process, they were incredibly grateful, and they said they'd learnt a lot. I learnt a lot too—particularly about government processes and procedures, because I'm not a public servant, and I get reminded of that a lot. I also have to give Minister Amanda Rishworth her dues. She gave us a lot of what we asked for. Honestly, I didn't think we'd get as much as we did. 

I'm a crier. I went home and cried all the way home because I just kept thinking, we did it. We got this for our kids. I might have done that part, but there are a lot of people—even people in this room—who fight for our kids every single day. We would never have achieved this without the Uncles, the Aunties and the people in community organisations who've fought for this for years. 

That's why you can't take this job lightly, because they'll come and get you if you don't do it properly. 

Isabella Higgins: They don't hold back. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: No, they don't. But that's the hard work they did. Even though this is hard slog, I actually think my part is the easier part, if that makes sense. 

Isabella Higgins: Where to from here? Where do you see the next year taking you? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: On 1 July we'll officially have the legislation in place. The three priorities for me—and we simply can't ignore them—are out-of-home care, youth detention and health. If children don't have good health, they can't attend school. Education is huge, but there are already a lot of people doing really good work in that space. Maybe the next commissioner can focus more on that. 

For me, out-of-home care, youth detention and health are all connected. Our kids' mental health is really suffering at a time when racism is so rife, and I see that a lot in our kids. We've already commissioned work that's underway around those issues. 

I don't think I'm ever going to say anything in this role that nobody has ever said before. The work has already been done. So, we're bringing together all the major national and state inquiries, reviews and commissions into out-of-home care and doing the same thing with youth justice. We're going to analyse all of that. 

We're not just going to say, "This happened here," or "That recommendation wasn't implemented." We're going to look at what powers we have, what the evidence tells us and where we go from there. 

That's not the full blueprint yet, but it's certainly shaping where we're heading. Already people have been coming to me with different perspectives, and I'm seeing things through different lenses. I've got some incredible people around me, particularly Elders whose advice I seek all the time. I'll say, "I've been thinking about this," and they'll give me a completely different way of looking at it. 

The list just keeps getting bigger, but I've got five years. By 1 July I want us to be really grounded in what we're going to focus on. I don't want to launch inquiries just for the sake of launching inquiries because they've been done to death. Our people have been over-consulted. I don't want to over-consult our kids either because I don't want to put that burden on them. I want us to be really strategic about what we do. 

One of the first things we've done is submit to the Parliamentary Inquiry into Racism. That was probably our first real piece of work. 

Isabella Higgins: When you talk about making change in those areas, you're talking about really big systemic change. How do you work with governments when improving the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children may not always be their highest priority? We only have to look at places like the Northern Territory, where some of the recommendations from the Don Dale Royal Commission have been repealed. How do you work with governments to change systems that feel so entrenched and, at times, almost unchangeable? Particularly when it doesn't always feel like the political will is there. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think the first thing is that I have to carry hope. Because if I don't, I shouldn't be in this job. 

Working with the state and territory commissioners, advocates and guardians is really important because they know their own backyards. My role is to work with them, not against them. There are also things the Commonwealth can do that simply haven't been done, so it's about bringing all of that together and laying it out with government so we can have a conversation about how we move forward. 

Because there has to be change. We've seen that again this week. If things don't change, the same things will keep happening to our children. And when I say our kids are dying—they're dying. They're being removed from their families. If that's not enough to make people act, I don't know what is. 

I also think people don't really listen to statistics anymore. I feel like they just gloss over them because they've heard them so many times. So how do we use the levers we have at a Commonwealth level? How do we work with the states and territories so we're supporting them rather than creating more work for them? 

At the moment I'm supporting the Northern Territory Commissioner, looking at what we can do together, how we can share resources and how we can work collaboratively. That's how this has to work. 

Government knew who they hired. So, my job is to be really strategic in how I present the evidence and advocate for change. One advantage of this role is that I don't have to work with just one side of politics. I can work with every party across the Parliament. That's where the strategy lies. 

Isabella Higgins: Earlier I mentioned the heartbreaking death of Kumanjayi Little. We want to be very respectful of her family, who are still in a period of mourning. But her death has prompted renewed discussion about the systems Aboriginal children live within, particularly housing in the Northern Territory. When you look at situations like this, do you simply think the state is letting children down? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: The state is letting children down. Every state and territory is letting our kids down. 

Housing is a child protection issue. Corrections is a child protection issue. They're all child protection issues because if you don't get those systems right, how do you prevent the harm? 

Things like this don't happen in a vacuum. They happen because all of those systems fail at the same time. Every one of those systems has to change if we're serious about making things better for our kids. 

That story made headlines, but it's only one story. If you asked any caseworker in this country, they'd tell you another story because this is happening every day. This is the daily reality for our kids. 

I remember one case involving a 10-year-old who was homeless. Ten. A homeless 10-year-old. How does that happen in this country? 

Isabella Higgins: How has it happened, in your mind? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: It's state failure. It's systems that haven't been invested in properly, and people are falling through the cracks. We're also in the middle of a housing crisis. 

My daughter once said to me, "Mum, why are people homeless? Don't they care?" 

The more I've learnt, and the closer I've come to politics, the more I've realised Aboriginal affairs becomes a political football. The reality is that standing up for our people doesn't necessarily win you votes. 

Isabella Higgins: So how do you advocate for those needs if traditional political incentives aren't enough? How do you encourage governments to make change when you're really appealing to people's conscience? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: One of the things I wrote about recently is that we often leave children out of these conversations. When we talk about family violence, for example, the focus is rightly on women, but people forget about the children. 

One of the things I really want to work on with National Children's Commissioner Anne Hollonds is children's rights and how we bring those rights much more strongly into these conversations. Children have the right to housing. They have the right to safety. They have the right to health. Those rights already exist, so how do we actually make them meaningful? 

One thing I'm particularly proud of is that our legislation includes the principles of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. I think it's one of the first pieces of legislation to do that so explicitly. 

Another part of this role is bringing evidence into the public conversation. We know children in remote communities have some of the highest rates of rheumatic heart disease anywhere in the world—the highest in the world. But we also know it's preventable. There are things we can do. 

So, the question has to be asked: Why are we allowing our children to die from preventable diseases? 

Those are the conversations we need to have. Not as political theatre. I'm quite happy to sit behind closed doors and ask government directly, "Why are you allowing our children to die?" That's the conversation that needs to happen. 

At the moment, investment is simply going into the wrong places. 

Isabella Higgins: Systemically? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Yeah. If we're not investing in children—particularly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children—we're investing in the wrong things. 

Think about children's mental health. I don't know whether anyone here has tried to access mental health services for a child recently, but families are waiting years. Our latest suicide figures were absolutely devastating. 

The conversations aren't being had with children in the room. 

One of the things I want to do is bring children to Parliament. Bring them to the people making decisions. Let them tell their stories and let those decision-makers sit and listen. Because if I have to sit and listen, then so should they. 

If there are parliamentary inquiries, I want children to be able to participate—but in a really safe, therapeutic way. I'm not talking about dragging children into Parliament. I'm talking about the young people who are ready and who want to tell their stories, because that's how you change hearts and minds. 

These kids deserve more than we're giving them. 

Isabella Higgins: How do you see yourself going out and listening to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children around the country? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: We're still developing all the frameworks around that work, but one decision I've made is that we're not going to establish our own children's advisory group straight away. Setting up the Office is already a huge job. 

Instead, we're going to work with the advisory groups that already exist across the states and territories. Most organisations already have youth advisory groups, so we'd rather join those conversations than create another layer. 

One group has a dinner every month. We're going to sponsor the dinner, turn up and listen. We're not going to arrive with a list of questions. They can tell us whatever they want—the good, the bad and the ugly. 

We're also developing postcards where children can write directly to the Commissioner and tell us what they want us to focus on. They're my bosses. They get to tell me what this Office should be doing. 

Another thing I want to do is take policy before it's implemented and translate it into language children can actually understand. Instead of talking about policy, we can explain what it might actually mean for them on the ground and ask, "What do you think?" I'm sure they'll have plenty to say. 

That's really important because policy is where everything starts. 

I don't actually want to be the face of this Commission. I want the children to be the face of it. I want their stories and their words to guide where we go and how we tell those stories. 

We've already been invited to the Torres Strait to talk with young people about climate change because that's what they want to talk about. We've had invitations from so many communities already, and it's really exciting. 

Isabella Higgins: Where else is at the top of your list? We love that you're heading to the Torres Strait, but are there other places you're particularly keen to visit? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I really want to go to places that don't usually get consulted. We're looking at travelling with the Western Australian Commissioner to some remote communities there. Aunty Rachel has invited us to Palm Island as well. 

Whenever we visit a community, one of my goals is to produce something afterwards—but not another report full of statistics and child protection figures. I want to tell the story in the community's own words. 

Then we'll take it back to them and make sure we've captured what they actually wanted to say. 

Of course, there'll be data where it needs to be, but I want communities to tell the story of their own Country, their own children and what's happening for them. That's what I'd like those reports to become. 

Isabella Higgins: Are you particularly focused on children in remote and regional communities? We know they often experience the poorest outcomes, but the majority of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children also live in cities. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: That's true. The city work is actually easier for me because I live in Victoria, so I'm very conscious that I don't want this Commission to become too Victoria-centric. 

Whenever I travel somewhere for an event like this, I always try to stay an extra day so we can visit organisations and communities while we're there. We'll ask the local Aboriginal organisations, "Where should we go? Who should we meet?" because they know their kids better than anyone. 

We've already had so many invitations from communities around Australia. 

Another thing that's really inspired me is hearing from young Aboriginal entrepreneurs. Their stories deserve to be heard too because we've got to change the narrative about Aboriginal children in this country. 

There are some incredibly talented, intelligent young people doing amazing things. 

I recently met a young woman who was the CEO of her own company at 23. I remember thinking, what was I doing at 23? I certainly wasn't running a company. 

We've also met a young man mentoring young people leaving youth detention because he'd been through that himself and wanted to make sure someone else had the support he never had. 

Those stories matter too. 

It's not all doom and gloom. 

There are extraordinary young people doing extraordinary things, and we need to celebrate them. 

Isabella Higgins: When I was reporting on Indigenous affairs, whenever things became really heavy, I'd always think, I need to go to a school. You'd walk in and immediately be reminded of children's energy, joy and resilience. I imagine that's something that keeps you going too. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Absolutely. Children are my biggest teachers. I learn so much from them. They're just inspiring. 

I remember listening to a young Torres Strait Islander woman talking about climate change and how she connected it to family violence. I'd never thought about those two things together before. She was talking about her family's islands, the rising sea levels, what it would mean to have to leave Country, and how that affects families. I could have listened to her for days. Our young people are incredibly insightful. If you stop and really listen, they teach you so much. 

Isabella Higgins: Do you think you'll spend a lot of time in places like Alice Springs? It's often in the media—unfortunately not always for good reasons—and right now is certainly one of those times. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think I'll go where I'm needed. At the moment I'm supporting the Northern Territory Commissioner, so if I need to be there, I'll be there. 

But I also think that just because I'm the National Commissioner doesn't mean I have to have a presence everywhere. Someone asked me if I was going to the vigil in the Northern Territory, and I said, "I think I need to be with my people on my Country, and they'll be with their people on their Country." Just because I'm the National Commissioner doesn't mean I have to have a presence there if it takes attention away from the people who should be at the centre of those moments. 

I think you need to go where your spirit tells you you're needed. 

Isabella Higgins: Well, it's good that your spirit is telling you to go to the Torres Strait. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: You can come with me if you want. 

Isabella Higgins: Leave the dog... leave the baby... 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: No, bring the baby. 

Isabella Higgins: She's got to meet her Country. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: She does. 

Isabella Higgins: In five years’, time, when your term comes to an end, what do you think success will look like? How will you know you've done a good job? It feels like success in a role like this might be difficult to define. It might not be something you can point to in a report or a statistic. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I really don't know because these issues are so entrenched. What I do know is that I carry hope. I won't go down without a fight, if that makes sense. I hope I finish this role absolutely exhausted because I've given it everything I've got. 

I hope there's change. Even if it's only a small amount of change, I hope we've started the momentum. Five years isn't actually that long. 

One thing I definitely want is for the Commission to be properly established. I want everything in place so the next Commissioner can walk in and hit the ground running. 

If we start to see reductions in out-of-home care, youth detention and poor health outcomes for our children, then that would mean a great deal to me. 

Isabella Higgins: Do you think there are any obvious opportunities for change? Any levers that could be pulled, or systems that could be improved, where you might be able to look back in five years and say, "That was something we changed"? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think there is. 

One thing I've been thinking a lot about is implementation. I don't think the system is being implemented the way it was intended. There's a gap between legislation, policy, practice and what actually happens on the ground. 

Take the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Child Placement Principle. It's embedded in legislation, but if it isn't actually being implemented, then something is going wrong. I'm not trying to blame workers, because if that's happening it tells me they haven't been given the training or support they need. 

So how do we fix that? 

I've also been thinking a lot about risk assessment. I'll go back to your work because I know it well. The risk assessment tools themselves aren't always culturally appropriate, but then they rely on professional judgement and personal judgement. That's where bias comes in. Whether someone understands their own bias or not, it's still there. We need people to understand it. 

I've been asking lots of questions because I think there's something really important in that space, even though I can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is yet. 

There's a gap between what legislation intends, what policy says should happen and what actually happens when a child is removed. Removal is supposed to be the option of last resort. 

If that's true, why are our children so overrepresented? 

That's one of the biggest questions we need to answer. 

Isabella Higgins: I guess I have to ask, as we talk about all of these things and the enormity of the role—and we've joked about it as well, about how Black families are very good at bringing you back down to earth—but they can also be your harshest critics. Sometimes, when you're working with community from within a Western institution, you can almost feel like you're in an unwinnable position. You're trying to help, but no-one's completely happy. How do you look after yourself while you do this work? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I've got really good Black women around me. Sorry, men... but the women are better. 

(Laughter) 

We just do things that aren't connected to work. I've also got friends I've known for a very long time. We've got this WhatsApp group called Chicks Who Lunch. We lunch—but it's not about work. It's just about life, and we have a really good laugh. 

You need to stay grounded. You need to feel the warmth of other people and spend time in places where none of this exists. I think that's really important. 

I've also got an incredible family. If anyone's heard of the Djirri Djirri dancers—the Wurundjeri women's dance group—they're my family. I'll go and sing and dance with them. It just rebuilds your spirit. It hits your soul. You're grounded. You're surrounded by Black love. You're singing and dancing on your own Country. That's where you feel at home. 

It doesn't matter where I've been, those moments bring me home. They revive you, and they check in on me all the time. 

Isabella Higgins: I've found through my own work, travelling and working in different communities, that when you're welcomed onto someone else's Country there's often a familiar feeling of love and belonging. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Yeah. The other day, leaving Alice Springs—I just happened to be there while everything was unfolding—you get to the airport and there are Blackfellas everywhere. They just come up and give you the biggest hug. You don't even have to say a word. 

That fills your cup. 

I love our people. That's why I do what I do. I want the next generation to feel that love. I want them to feel held. I want them to feel proud. 

Isabella Higgins: Proud of survival. Proud of strength. Proud to show up everywhere as themselves. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: And proud to say, "I'm an Aboriginal person," because it doesn't always feel very easy to say that at the moment. 

Isabella Higgins: Do you feel like you're taking on this job at a particularly difficult time? I'm thinking about things like the booing of Welcome to Country ceremonies on Anzac Day. After the Voice referendum, and with some of the governments we've seen elected, does it feel like this is an especially difficult climate in which to try to create change? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: That's a big question. I think people feel licensed to be racist now. They just do. 

When my appointment was announced online by the Minister's office, my mum rang me and said, "You need to call the Minister's office." 

I said, "Why?" 

She said, "Have you read the comments?" 

I said, "Don't read the comments, Mum." 

I was at Garma at the time, and eventually I looked at them. I just remember thinking, are you kidding me? You have to develop a thick skin. 

I do think this is a really difficult time. Our kids see all of this. Our kids see what people think about us, and that's what hurts me the most. I'm able to check in on my own daughter. I can't check in on every Aboriginal child across this country, particularly the kids who don't have someone checking in on them. 

That's why I do this work. I want our children to feel safe. I want them to feel loved. 

It is heavy work. There's racism everywhere. I don't know if everybody sees it, but you certainly see it and feel it every day. 

Eventually we had to turn the comments off because that was just the reality of doing this job. 

Isabella Higgins: Something like the booing of Welcome to Country isn't really about systems, is it? It's people. It's culture. Is changing that conversation something you see as part of your role? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Look, I honestly don't know where you start with racism. I don't. 

I remember sitting through evidence from a clinical study that showed prolonged exposure to racism can lead to PTSD. I don't know if everybody's heard about that research, but it really stayed with me. I think that's what we need to help people understand. This is what racism can become. These are children developing PTSD because of racism, and people don't always understand the enormity of words and actions. 

The conversation has to change. Just recently, for the first time, racism was really acknowledged in Parliament following the attacks on the Adass Israel Synagogue. We've still got a long way to go. 

I always say to people, if you speak up for my people when my people aren't in the room, then I know we're starting to win. That's what I ask of people. Step in when you hear it. 

Isabella Higgins: Don't leave it for us to do. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Exactly. I love it when someone else does that. It's the best, because I just sit back and think, let this unfold. 

Isabella Higgins: Do you think, as an Aboriginal woman, you feel safer in Australia now than when you were growing up? Or even compared with 10 years ago? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: No. I think this is the worst it's been. 

Our women are incarcerated at incredibly high rates. They're far more likely to experience family violence and far more likely to die as a result of family violence. What happens to their children? Their children get taken. 

No, I don't feel safe. 

Isabella Higgins: And it's a hard time to be doing this job if that's the environment you wake up to every day. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Yeah. But I think the thing is, if I feel like that as an adult, what do our kids feel like? I can't imagine what they feel like. 

I have a voice now. I actually have a position of power, and I'll do my best to make sure those kids don't have to feel that. 

Isabella Higgins: You hinted at it earlier, and I think we're all getting a sense of it, but you said, "They knew who they hired." What do you mean when you say that? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I've got a bit of a mouth. 

(Laughter) 

I don't mind saying what needs to be said. I don't need to say it with big words or wrap it up in political language. Sometimes things just need to be said. 

I think you can do it quietly. I don't need to rant and rave. But I will if I have to. 

I'm happy to be the quiet, calm, considered voice that sits behind things. But I'll also be loud when I need to be. 

Isabella Higgins: You've come a long way from that shy little girl. That's quite a metamorphosis. Perhaps you can help create that same transformation for other children. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Well, I hope so. One of the things I really want to do, as I move through different roles, is bring the next generation through. When I was at the Yoorrook Justice Commission there were opportunities to take on board positions, but instead I passed them on to younger Aboriginal women. They'd say, "I'm not ready for a board," and I'd say, "I'll mentor you." It didn't take long before they were taking up board positions themselves. 

That's exactly what I want. I want to bring the next generation through... so I can retire early. 

(Laughter) 

No—but seriously, so we've got another generation coming through. I always say we should work ourselves out of a job. We shouldn't need a National Commissioner for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children. We just shouldn't. 

I'm hoping there'll be a few Commissioners over time, and that things will keep improving. I hope I can build something that's long-lasting. I don't need a legacy. That's not what drives me. What matters is setting this up so the next person can build on what I've done. 

Isabella Higgins: That's a very humble way of looking at leadership, and I think it's something many powerful First Nations women share. They know they're standing on the shoulders of the women who came before them. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Yeah. I come from a long line of strong Black women, so I've got to do them justice. 

Isabella Higgins: We've had a lot of questions come through from the audience. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Be nice. 

(Laughter) 

Isabella Higgins: Would you like an easy one or a hard one? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Whatever. Just hit me. 

Isabella Higgins: We'll start with one of the harder ones. What needs to change about the way child protection is understood and funded in Australia? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Well, it's a white system. If you look back historically, it was set up to remove our kids. So, we need to ask ourselves why it's still removing our kids. 

It needs to become genuinely self-determined. We need to decide what works for our children, and it needs to be funded that way—not through little bits of funding that change every time governments change. 

I also want to be really clear about something. Sometimes children do need to be removed. We all know that. But if you're going to remove a child, you should already have a plan for how that child gets home. 

I used to say this all the time when I was doing case work. "Okay, I understand why the child's being removed. But have you planned, before you remove that child, how you're going to get that child back home?" I think that's the biggest thing. 

Isabella Higgins: So, there's a greater focus on reunification? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Well, it's a greater focus on mob. It's about asking, what’s happening in this family? And how do we get to them earlier? Earlier, earlier, earlier. Before the babies even born. Is the family functioning? What support do they need? 

But you've got to have safe options for people to go to. If you're struggling, you're not going to walk into a hospital and say, "I'm having a hard time," because where does that information go? Straight to child protection. We need really rigorous wraparound services that are community controlled. 

Isabella Higgins: Are there good examples of that happening anywhere in Australia? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think there are bits and pieces of it happening, but we've still got a child protection system that's focused on the law rather than the wellbeing of children. If we focused on the wellbeing of children, we'd have a very different system. 

Isabella Higgins: Do you think the system has changed much since you were working as a caseworker? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: No. No. 

Sorry... I know some people are going to come at me for saying that. 

I think there have been improvements. The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Child Placement Principle has been embedded in legislation. We've had some changes made to legislation. But again, it's about how it's implemented. 

Isabella Higgins: Some people would argue there are now more First Nations people working within these systems, and that there's much greater consultation than there once was. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: That's true. But they're still working within a white system. They're still operating inside a legislative framework they have to comply with. 

Isabella Higgins: So how do you change that? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think the first step is acknowledging it isn't working. If something isn't working, then we need to change it. 

Of course we need laws. We live in a society where there have to be laws. But if those laws exist to protect our children, why aren't they protecting our children? 

I even struggle with the term child protection. It doesn't protect our children. It's a bit like calling it youth justice. Where's the justice? 

Removing a child from their family is profoundly traumatic. Sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes it isn't. But every child who is removed experiences trauma. 

I remember coming home to my own daughter after child removals and thinking, Oh my God... It broke my heart. 

I've witnessed so many removals over the years, but what always mattered to me was: how do we get this child safely back home? How do we work just as hard with the parents as we do with the child? 

Children in care don't receive the therapeutic responses they need. They might get half an hour of therapy each week, yet we've just separated them from their family. Where's the intensive work with the child? Where's the equally intensive work with the family? 

Those things need to happen together. 

Isabella Higgins: Here's another really big question. Australia clearly has a long way to go when it comes to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in youth detention. Where do we even begin? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: That's a really big question. 

The first thing is that we need to raise the age of criminal responsibility. 

Everybody knows a 10-year-old. 

Think about a 10-year-old being locked up. 

Sometimes it feels like we're in a race backwards to see who can get to the lowest age. I believe they're even looking at bringing back spit hoods in the Northern Territory. 

Isabella Higgins: They're also trying to lower the age of criminal responsibility rather than raise it. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Exactly. 

There are so many issues to look at. I think it starts with policing. 

We also need to ask why the majority of our kids in youth detention have previously been in out-of-home care. We're failing children in care if they're ending up in youth detention. 

Think about it this way. If my daughter committed a serious offence, I'd be held responsible as her mum. People would question my parenting. 

When children are in out-of-home care, who's the parent? 

The state. 

So, where's the accountability? 

Who's accountable for the rates of child removal? 

Who's accountable? 

Isabella Higgins: Every year we read the Closing the Gap report and say the targets haven't been met again. But beyond that, there often doesn't seem to be much accountability. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Exactly. One thing I'm genuinely excited about is that accountability is built into my role. I have to go to Senate Estimates, which I actually think is a really important form of accountability. I have to account for what we're doing in the Office, and I think everybody should have that level of accountability. 

One of the powers we have is the ability to undertake research, reports and inquiries, and then table those reports in Parliament. I know people will say, "Reports just gather dust." I'm not going to let that happen, because I'll make plenty of noise if I have to. 

One of the things I learnt through the Yoorrook Justice Commission was the importance of evidence. We looked at changes to the bail laws in Victoria, and we were able to obtain documents showing that government knew the impact those changes would have on Aboriginal people but went ahead anyway. Being able to show people those documents really matters. Then the question becomes: how do we fix it? 

Another thing I learnt was that recommendations have to be practical. They have to be implementable. There's no point producing recommendations that governments simply can't deliver. 

I've already said to government departments, "Invite me to every discussion about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children." I might say no if it doesn't align with our priorities, but I want to know what's happening. There's so much happening across different systems. Part of my role is bringing those people together because we work in silos, and that doesn't help our children. 

Isabella Higgins: One of the audience questions touches on this. If you were to summarise it, what opportunities do you see for driving change in out-of-home care and youth justice through your legislative powers? You've spoken about raising the age of criminal responsibility and strengthening out-of-home care. If you had to summarise where you think your greatest opportunities lie, what would they be? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I think it's about working with the jurisdictions while also bringing a national perspective to what's happening. One of our biggest challenges is data because every state and territory collects it differently. We don't actually have a clear national picture, so we're undertaking work at the moment to analyse that data and look at how it can be collected more consistently. 

At the same time, we need to understand what levers exist at the Commonwealth level. Working with the Department of Social Services gives us the opportunity to see what's happening before decisions are made. We can have conversations about where the funding is going and ask, "Is that really where it needs to go? Could it be invested differently?" 

We can also look at how Aboriginal community-controlled organisations access funding. Is there funding that's specifically available? Are Aboriginal organisations getting equitable access? What does that look like? 

I genuinely believe there's hope. I believe we can achieve change. 

Isabella Higgins: Let's change pace a little. One audience member has asked if you could share more about your work building therapeutic practice and social work from a foundation of culture. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Thank you. That's probably my favourite topic. 

I'll use something I developed at VACCA as an example. I built a model called Cultural Therapeutic Ways. The outcome we were always working towards was self-determination. We brought together trauma-informed practice, self-determination and culture, with culture as the foundation. Then we worked through every team across the organisation and adapted it to the work they were doing. 

I borrowed different therapeutic approaches and rebuilt them through a cultural lens. We even developed an EMDR meditation around the four elements—earth, sky, water and fire—because that made sense for our people. It became something that worked for us. 

At the same time, we focused on supporting the workforce. Staff needed therapeutic support as much as the families they were working with. If our workers weren't well, they couldn't continue supporting others. We made sure everyone felt held. Staff received the training they needed, therapeutic support when they needed it, and learnt how to work in culturally safe ways, whether they were Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal. 

I'm really proud of that work. It's still being used today. 

Isabella Higgins: Another audience question asks: for non-First Nations Australians, what are some of the ways we can help bring about the changes you've been talking about? And what's unhelpful? What would you like to see less of? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Oh, where do I start? The biggest thing is listening to mob. Follow our lead. You don't get to lead, but you do get to support us. That might mean sharing things that need to be shared, particularly online, because that's where so many conversations happen now. 

One of the things I love most is giving people books to read. There are some incredible books written by Aboriginal people. I can't think of them all off the top of my head, but I'm very happy to give people recommendations. Read our stories. Watch documentaries. Learn. 

But don't lead. You don't get to. You get to follow our lead and support us. 

People often ask me, "What can we do?" I usually turn the question back on them: What are you prepared to do? Because meaningful allyship requires something. It might require your time. It might require your money. It might require your influence. What are you actually prepared to contribute? That's the bigger question. 

The least helpful thing people can do is speak on our behalf. 

Just don't. 

Isabella Higgins: People are also asking about some of the positive work happening in communities. You've spoken about the incredible work community organisations do. Are there any organisations or programs you'd particularly encourage people to look at? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I honestly think they're all doing amazing work in their own way. I don't really want to single anyone out because I'd inevitably leave someone out. 

But there was one program I heard about in a remote community where young people were creating rap music. 

Isabella Higgins: I know on Groote Eylandt they've got a whole rap program for young people. They make music videos and it's really cool. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Exactly. Some of those young people are telling their own stories through music. From a therapeutic perspective, there's something incredibly healing about rhythm. Some of the lyrics are really confronting, but that's their truth. 

Isabella Higgins: It also brings back language. Traditional language becomes part of contemporary music. In so many of the communities I've travelled to there's this incredible artistic, creative and musical talent. Young people have been surrounded by it from such a young age. They just need opportunities to feel proud of themselves and proud of their culture in ways that are meaningful to them. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Exactly. Some of the best programs I've seen are youth-led. Young people are painting. They're making documentaries. They're telling stories. I love watching those things because you learn so much. 

There are so many organisations doing incredible work. Every community is different. Every state and territory is different. That's why I don't like naming just one or two organisations, because so many deserve recognition. 

Isabella Higgins: I suppose those programs also look very different depending on whether they're in a remote, regional or urban community. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter:  Absolutely. There are some fantastic Birthing on Country programs as well. I'd particularly give a shout-out to Professor Catherine Chamberlain and the work happening in that space. I love those programs because that's where everything starts. 

Healthy mums. 

Healthy babies. 

Isabella Higgins: Absolutely. Some incredible Aboriginal midwives have really pioneered that space, and now Birthing on Country, and the idea of culturally safe maternity care, is becoming much more prominent in major hospitals across Australia. That's the work of amazing Aboriginal women. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I also love the baby Welcome to Country ceremonies. They've really had a bit of a revival, which I love, and they're always lovely to go and watch. They might be modern, but they're still ceremony. They're still our ceremony, and I think that's really important. 

I was at the Women Deliver conference in Melbourne the other week. It brought together Indigenous women from right across the South Pacific, and it was incredible. Those are the places where you feel held. Just seeing the different cultures, the different languages... and the singing. I've never met a Māori person who can't sing, by the way. 

(Laughter) 

These women welcomed you with song. It was just beautiful. Those are the sorts of experiences that restore your spirit. Conferences like that, where you catch up with mob, share what you're doing and take ideas back to your own communities—you come away thinking, they’re doing this. How could we do something similar? That's how we learn from one another. 

Isabella Higgins: I'd like to finish with a reflection on the incredible spirit of Aboriginal children. Perhaps you could share a story—or simply something that's stayed with you over the years—about the spirit of our children, and what it is that we need to protect. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Oh... that's really hard. 

I've worked with hundreds of our kids, and I just think people need to listen to them. They're so insightful. They'll teach you things you never would have thought of. They say and do things in ways that, as adults, we lose. We lose that clarity. They just say it as it is. 

Sometimes what they say absolutely pierces you because you feel so much for them. Other times it's just pure love. Even after everything they've been through, they still have so much love and joy. 

I always say to them—and it's a bit cheesy—"Stay strong, Black and deadly." 

They love it. 

They're joyful. 

I think, as adults, we sometimes take that joy away. We become so focused on everything that's wrong that we forget it's okay for children to just be joyful. 

That's part of this role for me. 

I want to bring back their joy. 

I want to bring back their love. 

Isabella Higgins: If you think about young Sue-Anne—the shy little girl—how do you think she would have reacted if more people had said to her, "Stay strong, Black and deadly"? 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: I don't know if she needed it... because look at me now. 

(Laughter) 

I probably would have been worse. 

But I do think I might not have been bullied as much. The racism might not have been as harsh as it was. 

I don't want any little one to have to go through what our kids still go through today. 

It hurts. 

It genuinely hurts me to think about what our kids have to go through. 

If it didn't hurt, I wouldn't be doing this job. 

I know I can't take all of it away. 

But if I can take away a little bit... if I can leave this Commission knowing our children feel a bit safer and a bit stronger... I think that's what I'd want to leave behind. 

Isabella Higgins: And that they're proud to be strong, Black and deadly. 

Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter: Exactly. 

Isabella Higgins: Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter, thank you so much for being so generous with us tonight. Thank you for sharing your reflections, your knowledge and your vision. It's so easy to sit beside you and chat because you're just full of great yarns, warmth and energy. I think there are a lot of people here who are really hoping you have every success in this new role. 

Please join me in thanking Commissioner Sue-Anne Hunter. 

(Applause) 

UNSW Centre for Ideas: Thanks for listening. For more information, visit the UNSW Centre for Ideas website, and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.