Centre for Ideas: UNSW Centre for Ideas.

Rob Brooks: Tonight, the Centre for Ideas and I have the great pleasure of hosting the Apocalypse Roadshow, which is quite the most original and fun book tour that I have ever seen. The creative and scientific genius behind the Apocalypse Roadshow is Doctor Athena Aktipis.  

By day Athena – and often by night as well – she is an evolutionary biologist, a cooperation theorist is a cancer biologist in the Department of Psychology at Arizona State University.

She’s the co-founder of The Human Generosity Project which is an amazing project you’ll hear a bit about tonight. Co-founder and incoming president of the International Society for Evolution, Ecology and Cancer. And the director of ASU's Cooperation and Conflict Lab.

If that seems like a lot, that is because it is. She’s developed mathematical theory and does work in the world's most remote places, she hosts a podcast called Zombified and producers to educational livestream channels, Channel Zed and Cooperation Science Network. 

And Athena writes amazing books, the reason we're here today. Her first book, 'The Cheating Cell: How Evolution Helps Us Understand and Treat Cancer' shows how cancer is very much a predictable consequence of the ways our cells work and cooperate together to build big bodies. That can walk around and occasionally haul ourselves out on a rainy weekday night to listen to one another talk. The tensions co-operation and conflict that govern the cells in our bodies, also shape our families, social networks, and society and her brand-new book over here – this is her copy – and so I mustn't take it off the stage, please remind me if I do, is 'A Field Guide to the Apocalypse: A Mostly Serious Guide to Surviving Our Wild Times'.

Now as somebody, like you, I am sure, who is deeply invested in surviving our wild times, I already want to know more. And if it is more you want, then it is more you are going to get, as Athena introduces us to the Apocalypse and her Field Guide.

She has brought with her to Australia, before you welcome her, not only her own considerable multi-threat talent, but professional touring singer-songwriter, and member of the Apocalypse Road Show, from Flagstaff Arizona, Ryan Biter. It is their first time in Australia, their first gig in Australia, give a warm Sydney welcome folks, as take it away. Athena and Ryan! 

Applause

Athena Akipis: Well hello Sydney! We are so happy to be here. I am Athena, this is Ryan and we're going to start out with a little bit of Americana vibes, with an apocalypse flavour.

Music plays

Athena sings:

Well if you're thinkin'
About preppin' for the end
Do it my way, the all hazards way my friend
I get my kicks in the apocalypse

No better time
To start preppin' than today
Better get on up ahead before it's too late.
Get your kicks in the apocalypse

When San Francisco's shakin'
San Bernadino's bakin'
Oklahoma's twistin' and Phoenix faintin'
You'll need that shelter in place kit

When UFOs from Sedona
Take over Arizona and little green men
Try to put you in a coma

You'll need to get hip to this timely tip
And go prep that shelter in place kit
And get your kicks in the apocalypse

You'll need some food and water
For 72 hours
TP and paper towels
Duct tape and a hand crank radio

Wrench or pliers, a manual can opener
Flashlight and some chargers
Put in some extra water
Maps and a whistle
And first aid kit

So come on
And get hip to this timely tip 

And go prep your shelter in place kit
Get your kicks in the apocalypse

Athena Aktipis: Ryan, take it away!

Ryan Bitter plays guitar and Athena Aktipis plays ukelele

Athena Aktipis sings:

Then move on to your pantry
No need to make it fancy 
Just beans and some rice
And it's oh so nice

And add some quinoa and some peanut butter too
Stack that whiskey and that honey
More valuable than money 
And when shit hits the fan

You can put it in your tummy
Come on..
To get hip to this timely tip
And go prep that shelter in place kit 
And get your kicks in the apocalypse.

When San Francisco's shakin'
San Bernadino's bakin'
Oklahoma's twistin' 
And Phoenix faintin'
You'll need that shelter in place kit

When UFOs from Sedona
Take over Arizona
And little green men
Try to put you in a coma

You'll need to get hip to this timely tip
And go prep that shelter in place kit
Get your kicks in the apocalypse!

Yeah it's a trip, this apocalypse
So shut your lips and go prep that kit!

Applause

Athena Aktipis: Thank you guys so much. So, Ryan and I both live in Arizona, Ryan in Flagstaff, I mostly live in Phoenix, Arizona, but I spend a lot of time in Flagstaff which is on Route 66.

Ryan and I also spend a lot of time on the road for different reasons, me, mostly going around and talking about my work, and now singing about my work a little bit too. Ryan, you spend a lot of time on the road as a professional musician.

Ryan Bitter: Yes, I have.

Athena Aktipis: We also meet a lot of people, a lot of different people, we have been travelling together, to Albuquerque, meeting interesting people along the way. But you’ve travelled probably more around the country of America than, like, anybody I know.

Ryan Bitter: Probably, yeah. It’s quite an experience. About two weeks ago I was in the south-eastern part of the country, and did about 4000 miles… I don't know the conversion to metric, but that is a lot. Across the country, I was on the east coast, I was in California, then home for two days and now I am here with you.

Athena Aktipis: And what is your prospective on people from all of the travel? Do you think they are inherently good? Or do you worry when you are travelling?

Ryan Bitter: I think it is a mixed bag. Especially in America there is a big culture of fear, when it comes to the media. So people have a view of each other very sceptica and very afraid. As if their neighbours are all going to hurt each other.

And that’s just not the reality I find when I travel. I find that regardless of affiliation or background that people are very willing to help each other and willing to collaborate and cooperate.

So, I find that to be the case and not what people... what pays the bills on media to say is the case.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, I totally agree. And a lot of what we're doing with the Apocalypse Roadshow is going around and talking to people and producing a different show, everyplace we go. We bring in local artists and musicians and academics to think about and talk about the many different aspects of how we survived the apocalypse. And also how other species survive challenges.

Some of the people who are part of our team work on how ants work together to survive when there are challenges. How many other organisms work together, actually. So it’s a project that expands both many different areas within academia and then we’re connected now to all of these artistic communities, which is really wonderful.

So, if we’re talking about the apocalypse, we have to talk about zombies. And why zombies? Well, zombies are a fun way to think about something that otherwise might be really difficult, like contemplating how you are going to deal with a disaster. Whether it is a fire, whether it is some other disaster that’s a result of climate change. Or if we're just talking about something like a pandemic, what we all have been having to deal with for many years.

The zombie apocalypse can be a stand-in for all these many different kinds of disasters that we might have to face. Thinking about could we survive the zombie apocalypse, and could we survive the zombie apocalypse together? As a way for us to come together and use our imagination to engage. You’ll be hearing a lot more about that as the rest of the show unfolds tonight

Another aspect of the apocalypse, many of us are worried about what is happening with technology and in particular with AI. Are we in an AI apocalypse? Do we have to worry about machines taking over the world? Or is the tech apocalypse more like this, where we are completely overwhelmed by all of the tasks we are getting from our devices? And I think that probably there is an element of truth to both of those. We’re so integrated with technology now that that poses a lot of challenges for us.

Sometimes people ask me, you know, "Athena, you write about the apocalypse and think about the apocalypse a lot. What do you think is the most likely apocalyptic scenario, of all these possibilities?" What I always say is, I think the most likely thing is actually a clusterfuck apocalypse.

Not one particular thing going wrong, but maybe there’s a minor disaster, but then there is another minor disaster that has effects that amplify each other. And that leads to knock-on effects which cause another disaster. And before you know it, many of our systems that maybe aren’t resilient enough to deal with those perturbations are being hit at the same time, and I think that is where a lot of our challenges come.

So, if we can be more resilient in general and build our systems to be resilient, and be more resilient as individuals, as well, by understanding ourselves better, I think these are all extremely important things. And with my book I have tried to weave all these different levels together. Talking about how we can as a society be more resilient, how we can understand ourselves and our own decision making better in times of stress. And then how we can work together more effectively. So, as I do some readings for you from my books, some of those themes will come out a little bit more.

And I would be remiss if I didn't start off here by talking about what do I actually mean by an apocalypse? You might have been able to guess from my name, Athena Aktipis, that I’m Greek, yeah? I am half Greek. When I started thinking about and working on the apocalypse very deeply, what actually is the ancient Greek definition of the apocalypse? It means a revelation. In this case, a revelation really of the underlying risk, the underlying reality of the risk that we face in the world.

A small negative event that isn’t necessarily the end of the world can be an apocalypse because it tells you, hey, actually, there’s more risk there than maybe you thought. There’s a risk you need to be prepared for and aware of. And so, it is an invitation to learn and be better prepared as an individual and a society.

Alright, so without further ado, I'm going to read you guys a little bit from my book. This is an excerpt about the 1906 San Francisco earthquake.

“After the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco, half the city was homeless, and the commercial district had literally gone up in flames. In the aftermath people spontaneously created co-operative infrastructure, including setting up camps in parks to provide food and shelter for people who had lost their homes.

This was accompanied by what author and historian Rebecca Solnit describes as a surprisingly joyous atmosphere. As one of the witnesses described it; ‘When the tents of the refugees and the funny street kitchens improvised from doors and shutters and pieces of roofing, over spread all the city, such merriment became an accepted thing. Everywhere during those long, moonlit evenings, one could hear the tinkle of guitars and mandolins from among the tents.’

People helped each other when they see need and had the ability to help. There was an always complete suspension of market norms and transactions for several weeks. With stores giving away supplies, butchers distributing meat, plumbers working free of charge to repair broken infrastructure, and the trolley car companies letting people ride for free.”

When I say we need to have a little bit of fun in the apocalypse, that’s based in what we know about how people actually come together and respond when there are deep challenging difficulties that they face collectively. Very often the arts and expression, music, those things are really central to how we as humans deal with those challenges.

And now we can also look to small-scale societies and how they deal with disasters and challenges. So, when Rob introduced me, he talked about the Human Generosity Project. This is a more than decade-long project where we’ve looked around the world at how people in small-scale societies help each other in times of need.

So I’ll read you a short excerpt from a book about that.

“Our project started with the Maasai, a group of pastoralists who live in and around the Great Rift Valley in Kenya and Tanzania in East Africa. The Maasai have a relationship called 'osotua' translated as umbilical cord. A mutual aid system that helps them manage risks. When a Maasai household is in need – say a drought or a disease killed many of their cattle – they can ask one of their osotua partners for help. And if that partner is able to help without going below what they themselves need, they will help.

This system leads to what is called a limited risk pooling arrangement. It is limited because the obligation to help only kicks in if it doesn’t put the giver at risk. If osotua partners do end up helping each other, it’s done with an open heart and no expectation of repayment. The only expectation is they would be recipients of the same kind of help if they needed it in the future, which is very different from expecting to be paid back. It works out as more of a social insurance system than alone.

And so when we look at how small-scale societies deal with challenges, there are many strategies that they use. A lot of what I talk about in the book is how we can learn from the ways that people in small-scale societies help each other and apply that today. So helping each other in times of need is an extremely important one, but there are also other ways that people manage risk by shoring up any vulnerabilities they have, taking care of their shelters, actually avoiding risks if they can, and being prepared with supplies to outlast disaster if it happens, which that relates to our shelter in place kit which you heard about in my song, and we’ll talk about more later in the show as well.

Alright, next up let's talk about our brains a little bit. So, when it comes to dealing with challenges, if we can't understand how our own brains and our own bodies are processing the information that is coming in when we’re under stress, it can be really hard to respond in a way that is functional.

So one of the things that is important is to be able to tell if something is really a threat or not. And if something is a threat, to be able to understand that and respond effectively, and hopefully not be so stressed by it that you can't process what’s going on. In the second chapter of my book, I, sort of, talk about our brains on the apocalypse, and how by understanding our own decision-making we can do a lot better.

So I am going to talk to you guys now about 'goosiles' – you might not have heard about goosiles before – they’re, sort of, a cross between a goose and a missile. So, yeah.

Imagine you are sitting in a missile control room, staring at one of those old school green on black circular radar displays. The frontier of new information circles around from the middle, updating in the image, in a manner that is vaguely reminiscent of a modern loading icon. You’re tasked with figuring out whether any of these weird, blobby, green shapes are missiles, and if you identify one that you’re pretty sure is a missile, you are supposed to initiate a sequence that will end in nuking the enemy and killing millions of people. So is that green blob on your radar screen a bit of weather, or a high flying goose? Or is it really a missile headed for your homeland?

Believe it or not, you and your nervous system is trying to constantly solve problems like this. And like a radar operator trying to assess incoming threats on a messy green display, your nervous system is sorting through millions of signals coming in every second through your eyes and ears, looking for things that could do you harm.

The problem is that the world is filled with ambiguity. The same green blobby shape on the radar screen could just as easily be a missile or goose. In fact, they’re goosiles. Fundamentally ambiguous stimuli that might or might not be a threat.

Because some stimuli are fundamentally goosiles, there is no way to perfectly distinguish the geese from the missiles. This equates to an unavoidable trade off. Either you correctly identify more missiles but have more goose false alarms, or you correctly reject more geese but miss some missiles.

Now there is relatively simple math attached to this principle, which goes by many names. Signal detection theory, the smoke detector principal, error management theory. But the underlying idea to all of them is the same. It often makes sense to tolerate some false alarms so that you don't miss the real thing. But if the cost of false alarms is really high, like accidentally starting World War 3 by mis-categorising a goosile, then it’s really important to avoid those false alarms, even if it means a greater chance of failing to detect a missile. 

In a world of goosiles, our nervous systems are doing their best to sort things into metaphorical missiles and geese, and as with a military radar system the cost of misses can be high but so can the cost of false alarms. Constantly mobilizing your sympathetic nervous system to deal with threats not only takes bodily energy, it also leaves you more vulnerable to being exploited because your sympathetic nervous system is juiced to respond to incoming stimuli and is therefore blind to other factors.

So, is there some way to escape the seemingly inevitable trade-off between being too unresponsive to incoming missiles and overreacting to geese? Thankfully, in real life, we don't rely on a green, blobby, radar display to decide if something is a threat or not.

We can gather information from many different sources and use that information in ways that help us make better decisions. For example, if the green, blobby thing is not just missile shaped but also is moving at a missile like speed and is hot as fuck because it’s burning rocket fuel, then you can be pretty sure it is not a goose.

On the other hand, if it’s slow-moving, and lukewarm, then you can probably ignore it. The bottom line? A key part of managing stress is gathering information so you can figure out what you actually do and don't need to be stressed about.

So, let me offer you a few practical tips for how to round out your information ecosystem so that you don't get stuck over reacting to threats. And you don't just become completely unresponsive to things that are in your world.

So, number one, look at a potential threat from multiple perspectives. Two, attend to all of your senses when assessing a threat. Three, find as many dimensions of information as you can. Four, talk to people who have different knowledge then you do. Number five, know when to stop gathering information. Don't get stuck in a risk assessment loop.

So, we can use all of these tips and tricks to deal with that deluge of information that we often get when we open up our phones or our computers and see things that can be quite stressful, in terms of worries about what is coming in the short term, or medium term, or long-term.

So, those are some tips you guys can use for thinking about processing that information and talking to others. And I want to emphasise that when it comes to assessing threats, we, as humans, we’re very, very social. So, we like to talk to others about things we’re worried about.

And many of us do that in an online space, on social media platforms, where we’re sharing information. But, through those platforms, we don't have much control over what people actually see or don't see because that gets determined by algorithms.

So, there is something very valuable about having an in-person conversation with someone about something you’re worried about. Because you know the, sort of, rules of engagement for that and you can also go deeper. It is also a much better way to talk with people who you disagree with because it’s easier to find common ground when you’re not in an environment, like these are social media platforms, that are actually incentivised to create conflict.

So, finding each other in real life and talking to each other is immensely valuable and that’s part of how our ancestors survived the challenges they did. And one of the things that, for me, is just very inspiring when I look at our evolutionary history is that it’s very clear that we actually evolved to deal with disasters.

So, the things that we’re handling now, today, yes, they are on a massive scale, requires a greater degree of co-operation and co-ordination to deal with them. But our ancestors have had to deal with a lot of apocalyptic situations and got through them through working together, through sharing information, and through creativity and innovation, and having some fun dealing with the bad things that have happened to them. So, it's part of our nature to survive and potentially also thrive during apocalyptic times.

So, I want to now move on from our goosiles, but for any of you who are familiar with signal detection theory, this is a way of, sort of, representing our goosiles in signal detection theory terms, you have to have a sort of threshold for what you will call a 'missile' or not and it can be tough to figure out where you put that threshold. I do hope that soon we will have goosiles merch, so you could buy a cuddly goosile to take home with you at some point.

So we are going to talk about chess now. Chess is both a game and it is also an acronym. So, I am going to talk to you guys about both of those.

When I was a kid, I hated chess. Probably because my younger brother was better at it than me. But, lately, I have been playing quite a bit of chess, mostly with my youngest son, who is also better at it than me. And I’ve come to appreciate the game's elegance and emerging complexity from just a handful of simple rules. Chess is about the balance between staying safe and going out into the world, or in chess lingo, protecting versus developing your pieces. Chess is also fun when you understand this underlying tension, something I didn’t appreciate until I started taking chess more seriously.

Now, the idea of having fun with the apocalypse might be hard to swallow, at first. Thanks to the recent pandemic, all of us are likely accustomed to being miserable a considerable amount of time, even when we’re not facing the red-hot heat of an active apocalypse.

We’re also trained to accept shitty things from the time we’re tots. So we just kind of put up with having a life that is often painful, boring, or a combination of the two. I am not saying we should not work hard, that we should work hard on the things we’re actively deciding to do because they are important and ideally, also, at least kind of fun. We should reawaken that childlike part of us that is curious and likes amusement and then work hard on something that feeds that inner child with some delightfully playful apocalyptic sustenance.

So, let's play chess. Or more accurately, let's play C H E S S. My acronym for the five strategies we can employ to make the Apocalypse into something that we actually want to engage with. A way to find that balance between safety and actually getting yourself out there, into the world.

With chess, we can make contemplating and preparing for the apocalypse a kind of game, but we’re smart about it, thinking through possibilities for how we might move forward, developing our pieces. And carefully considering uncovering the vulnerabilities, protecting our collective pieces, and carefully considering the vulnerabilities that open up as we make moves, protecting our pieces. With chess, we can approach complex and terrifying problems with flexibility, openness, and a readiness to learn and cooperate.

Here’s how it works.

C for curiosity. We humans are fundamentally curious creatures. We can harness that curiosity to learn about the apocalyptic landscape we are facing and how to handle it. Ideally with less doom-scrolling.

Humour. Even when things are bad, especially when things are bad, humour helps us find joy, connection, and stress relief. It can even help us look at problems differently and shift our efforts to be more effective.

Entertainment. We love to listen to music, look at amazing visual art, hear from hilarious comics, watch fun movies, and read engaging books. Being entertained opens us up to new ways of seeing the world and can make it easier to learn and remember.

Storytelling. When we tell stories, we bring our shared attention and imagination to these stories. With apocalyptic stories, this gives us a chance to have collective engagement with things that might otherwise be too scary for us to really want to spend a lot of time talking or thinking about.

Socialising. Having fun, throwing parties, performing, and sharing information during intense times is one of the ways that humans deal with collective threats. Also, the connections that we forge through these social events can form the basis of mutual aid relationships that can come in handy during real catastrophes.

So, when it comes to dealing with an apocalyptic landscape, we have to make space to be able to engage with our communities, to engage with each other, to engage with ourselves, and to make space for stories, for music, for things that bring us together. And help us to deal with challenges.

So, this is just a little figure from my book of an apocalypse party. You can see – you might think you’re just having fun, but you are actually doing a lot of very important things when it comes to building trust, sharing information, bonding together, and having shared attention on things like stories and songs. And those things actually help us to deal with challenges because we are able to both be less stressed ourselves, and find common ground with others that make it easier for us to deal all together with the challenges that we’re facing.

And if you’re at an apocalypse party like this, you might also have a chance to meet somebody who could be a good partner in the apocalypse. So, I think right now we're going to transition to talking about dating in the apocalypse with one of our resident experts on the topic, so, Rob, I can't wait to chat with you!

Applause

Rob Brooks: Wonderful Athena, I love the sense that the apocalypse can be fun. And especially the notion about being social and enjoying yourself through, you know, those tough times. I think that was the hardest thing about the COVID lockdowns for a lot of us, was not being able to have that connection and all the secondary things that come with that.

I want to quote a philosopher, from the late 1960s – which was a deeply apocalyptic time – and his name was Jim Morrison, of The Doors,

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: And he said, I’ll tell you this; “I don't know what is going to happen, baby, but I want my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames."

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: He got there, he got there first. By ‘kicks’ I think he meant rock 'n' roll music, but he also meant what the kids these days, euphemistically call ‘dating’.

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: And cause we wanna ask you a question and that question is, "are you dating currently?" And that can be any definition of dating you like. And, "are we in the dating apocalypse?"

And you can be not dating and answer these questions. I would love to know what you think about this. Because um, yeah, it’s, do you think we are in a dating apocalypse Athena?

Athena Aktipis: I kind of think we are in a dating apocalypse, with the way that dating apps have taken over such a huge amount of the, sort of, space that people have available in their heads for thinking about who their partners might be.

Rob Brooks: What did the people here think? We've got – not a lot of you are dating, I’ve heard that about your generation!

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: But the dating apocalypse sure is real and is moving along.

But yeah, 36% of people are saying they are not dating but they believe it’s real, so you’ve sympathy. And amongst the dating people say, more than not say it’s really bad out there.

Athena Aktipis: Well then maybe some of the people aren’t dating because they’re like, it’s a dating apocalypse, so I'm just going to opt out of this!

Rob Brooks: I mean the apps aren’t doing the important stuff, are they?

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, so the apps, they really just provide this, sort of, temporary positive reinforcement but it is very hard to sort of find a genuine connection when you don't have all of the cues that you have in real life, and also you’re often meeting people completely outside of your social network.

So, in order to build trust and to really know that somebody is a person who you might be able to depend on in a time of need, that’s very hard when you are dealing with, you know, this sort of complete anonymity, as what happens with most of the dating apps.

Rob Brooks: So you can see lots of different people, you can see what the market is out there, the so-called market, or what companies want you to believe is the market. 

Athena Aktipis: Mmm hmm.

Rob Brooks: But when I went to university, which was in a different century... I mean, we would, we believed in the two-party system, a party on Friday night and a party on Saturday night.

Athena Aktipis Laughs

Rob Brooks: And you kind of had to go because you might be lucky and meet one new person that was potentially datable and might think you are datable. And it was a very slow process, wasn't it? For the average person. What was it like when you were at uni, in a different place? 

Athena Aktipis: When I was at university, well, I went to a university where all of us were just so weird that, like, none of us could imagine dating each other, so…

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: Yeah? Was it Hogwarts?

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: Okay!

Athena Aktipis: Actually, when I was at university, I was, and this might throw a wrench in things a little bit, but I was a professional salsa dancer. So I was going out dancing and I would meet people dancing.

Rob Brooks: That’s a good way to meet people.

Athena Aktipis: It is a good way to meet people, yeah!

Rob Brooks: Yeah, we had the ballroom dancing club, was the most reliable place where you would meet single people. That was kind of the code.

Athena Aktipis Laughs

Rob Brooks: So we’ve got another poll coming up here. You’ve looked at /

Athena Aktipis: Oh yes.

Rob Brooks: / sort of what tinder profiles might look like in the apocalypse.

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: So we…

Athena Aktipis: Yeah! You can think about who are you, how do you think of yourself in the apocalypse. We want to know if you had to choose between these types:

Apocalypse-core, you’re wearing sensible shoes, you have your everyday carry ready, your clothes have good pockets, you’re every day emergency ready, that’s apocalypse-core.

Rob Brooks: You get to vote guys. Which one are you?

Athena Aktipis: Everyday hero. You’re not just ready for an emergency, you’re ready to jump in and help others during an emergency. Maybe you have a military background or you’re a paramedic or firefighter, or just a brave, caring human being.

Prepper-chic. You’re into practical prepper, cottage-core aesthetics. Maybe you have non-decorative jars with rice and beans and pasta and dried fruit lining the shelves in your kitchen. Or deeply Instagram-able apocalypse ready garage.

Urban Homesteader. You’re growing food in your backyard, on your windowsills or even inside your house. Maybe you have backyard chickens or are into fermenting stuff like kombucha, radishes, yoghurt or sourdough.  

Back-to-the-lander. You’re ready to get out of dodge and just buy some land and grow some shit. Or you have already done it. Fuck capitalism.

Hopeless helper. You’re a MacBook typing, avocado mashing, fancy coffee sipping, city living person with no preps and no plan for the apocalypse, but you’re ready to help if someone else has a plan and will give you directions.

To be clear, if you’re this type, you’re not really apocalypse ready, but you can take steps to get there before the shit hits the fan.

Rob Brooks: These are all sympathetic characters /

Athena Aktipis: They are!

Rob Brooks: / I like them already! Right swipe!

Athena Aktipis laughs

Athena Aktipis: Who are you?

Rob Brooks: Look, I'd like to believe I am a back-to-the-lander, I think.

Athena Aktipis: Mmm!

Rob Brooks: But yeah, I may be a down the hopeless end of things. Yourself?

Athena Aktipis laughs

Athena Aktipis: I think I am Urban Homesteader.

Rob Brooks: Fair enough.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah.

Rob Brooks: You do use various fermenting techniques, don't you?

Athena Aktipis: I do. I do a lot of fermenting.

Rob Brooks: There’s some really useful recipes in the book /

Athena Aktipis: Yeah.

Rob Brooks: / for how to start your own cultures.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Kombucha, sourdough, lots of, yoghurt, and all of my personal tips, which are basically how to benignly neglect your starter in a way that won’t be catastrophic. That’s most of the advice I have.

Rob Brooks: So if you’re gonna buy the book, I mean, if you’re not buying it for all the fun stuff and cooperation theory and the advanced evolutionary thinking, which is hidden so subtly / 

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: / you know, I would call it hiding the broccoli under the chips.

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: Buy it also for the recipes because it’s actually super practical and will save you money. And maybe save your life!

So, um, everyone is quite self-deprecating.

Athena Aktipis: We have a lot of hopless helpers.

Rob Brooks: Quarter of the people are just pretty much thinking they’ll like to come along but they can’t really offer much.

Athena Aktipis: Well, you know, if you are ready and willing, there’s a lot to learn, and you might discover you have some hidden apocalypse talents that you didn't realise if you think about it a little bit.

Rob Brooks: Excellent. I am interested now in what you might be looking for. If, imagine you are in the apocalypse. I don't want to hear what you are looking for right now. They may be here, may not be here, that's your business. But what are you looking for in the apocalypse? What kind of types?

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, yeah.

Rob Brooks: And that’s a bit more open ended.

Athena Aktipis: If the apocalypse were to happen right now, like we heard the alarms go off and everything went on lockdown, and it is like "the zombies are outside!", how about you Rob, would your preferences change for what you’re looking for in a mate?

Rob Brooks: I am looking for a bad ass.

Athena Aktipis laughs

Athena Aktipis: Okay!

Rob Brooks: I mean, you do say you don't just get a gun and sit on top of all your stuff.

Athena Aktipis: That’s right.

Rob Brooks: But, I am looking for someone with some of those skills.

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: Yourself?

Athena Aktipis: I am looking for somebody who is funny because, man, in the apocalypse, I need to have a good laugh. That is the most important thing for me.

Rob Brooks: One of the things about the apocalypse is it lasts a really long time.

Athena Aktipis: It does, yeah.

Rob Brooks: Could you handle that, kind of, sense of humour for a long period of time?

Athena Aktipis: I need it for the long haul with the apocalypse.

Athena Aktipis laughs

Rob Brooks: So you have a couple, you don't just have one apocalypse ready kit, you have a few.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, should we talk about some kits and bags, and what you need to be ready?

Rob Brooks: I think so.

Athena Aktipis: So, when people think and talk about being prepared for a disaster, and being prepared for, you know, the apocalypse, oftentimes if you think about prepping, people have a view of, oh, prepping is selfish. Right? You are just taking care of yourself and not thinking about the bigger picture.

But prepping is something that is actually extremely important for every household to do. Because if households are not ready to manage their own risk, then in the event of a disaster, they contribute to a humanitarian crisis.

I’ll tell you how this works, right? So, you have a situation if people don't have food and water and basic supplies in their homes when there’s a disaster, then not only do the emergency responders have to deal with the problem at hand that’s causing the disaster, but they also have to figure out how are they going to get all of the supplies to people who need them.

So, having a shelter in place kit with everything you need for yourself and your family, to survive for 72 hours, to be able to lock down and not have to leave your house, is a way that you can both take care of yourself and make our systems more resilient in the face of a disaster.

So, here are some things that is really important to have in your kit. I will start with the most important, is water. A lot of us don't really think about needing to have a lot of water on hand because we just open up the taps and there’s always water available. But if we have a breakdown of infrastructure, then we might not have access to water, or clean water. So making sure you have seventy two hours supply of water is really important. And a good, sort of, rule of thumb is about one liter per person per day for drinking, and another extra litre if you also want to be able to wash your hands and stuff like that. So having at least two liters per person, per day.

Some food, change of clothes, any medications. It's good to have maps, both in your shelter in place kit and in your go bag, because if infrastructure is down you might not actually know how to get anywhere or understand the relationship between places, and that can be really important.

So, and you can see, I also have a charger in here, duct tape, some treats, cards and games. You also want to make sure you’re entertained, if it's a long time that you’re going to be just hanging out inside. Harmonica here in the shelter in place kit. You know?

Rob Brooks: Your food? You talk about a deep pantry. What does a deep pantry mean for you?

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, a deep pantry is, sort of like, another level of shelter in place readiness. It comes actually from an understanding of what you like to eat, and then making sure that you have a good supply of it. So, basically for me that means I take... I will go to the store and get pasta, and I will put my new ones behind, and then eat from the front. I always have at least 5 or 6 or 7 extra containers of pasta because I know I love to eat pasta! And if I was on lockdown for a few weeks or months, I would want to be able to have pasta.

I have a lot of, you know, beans and lentils and things like that, grains, nuts, dried fruit is great. Having a pantry for you have a lot of dry goods that won’t perish that you like to eat, and then you just replenish them as you go, but you, kind of, keep a stock.

Rob Brooks: And a bit of extra water per day to cook that in.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, you definitely… having extra water is important, and, you know, is not that hard. An easy thing to do. A friend of mine was like, oh, every time I go to the store, I just grab an extra gallon of water in a jug, and I put it in my garage. And now he’s got, like, a pretty good collection of it. And I just have a bunch of extra bottled water that I store in my kitchen above my fridge. So, I know that I’ve got that. So, you know, it's good to just stock that water, even if you don't think you’ll need it.

Rob Brooks: People are going, ooh, the IGA closes at 9!

Athena Aktipis laughs

Athena Aktipis: Yeah!

Rob Brooks: You have a kit here.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, well, so I am far from home. So, when I travel, when I travel by car, I take a car kit with me. In fact I always have this with me, always have this in my car. But I'm not here with my car today, but I am here with my adventure kit, which I consider to be part of my preparation gear, but it is something I take with me and that I hope to use.

And so, I brought it with me on this trip because Ryan and I will be adventuring around. We’re driving from here to Melbourne in a few days, and who knows where we’ll stop along the way.

I have this little backpack, and in here I’ve got, an excessive amount of layers in here, basically.

Rob Brooks: Layers are good though.

Athena Aktipis: Layers! I knkow, this is like, much more than is necessary, right?. Because winter in Australia, you don't really need a hat, like this. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Brooks: We don't heat our houses here. People would want that.

Athena Aktipis: I’ve got some gloves, I’ve got some zip on, zip off pants, a rain jacket, a water bottle that is completely flexible and very light, and then, most importantly, this is my everyday carry kit for my adventures. And in it, I have an EpiPen because I am allergic to bee stings, and lots of little things, like an emergency blanket here in case you end up, say a car broke down and it's cold and we’re in the middle of nowhere, because I understand there is a lot of that here in Australia.

Rob Brooks: Mmm hmm!

Athena Aktipis: Middle of nowhere. Have an emergency blanket.

Rob Brooks: We do nowhere a lot.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah! Hah! A tiny roll of duct tape, great for fixing things. A whistle so you can call for help. A little notebook and pencil to write with, because in the event of an emergency, sometimes you need to take notes. Having that is great. A little snack, a lighter. This… you can use this to tie things. You know, things that seem may be a little random, but I have had to use a lot of these when I have been hiking, kayaking, out cross-country skiing.

And it is really nice to be ready for the kind of small challenges you might face when you are adventuring. Because then you are not as worried, you know, to go out into the world and try things when you are like, oh, I am sort of prepared for the basic kinds of risks I might face.

Rob Brooks: That’s fabulous, you have inspired me to make one, so... 

Athena Aktipis: It is all about having the sense of adventure, and having something continuous with thinking about the challenges we are facing, more broadly.

And of course, you know, having somebody who is getting very cold and almost hypothermic when you are out kayaking, that’s not a disaster on any sort of scale, like we are dealing with globally. Or having a boat completely fall apart on you, that actually happened to me and we had to, like, pull it together.

So those kinds of things, if you look them as like, oh, that’s an adventure to try to improvise, or try to figure out how to deal with it, maybe have some fun, have a sense of humour about how things are going wrong, work together to solve it. Yeah.

Rob Brooks: Fantastic. Shelter in place when you have to, but get out and have adventures and take your kit with you, when you don't have to.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, and cultivate a sense of adventure about your own life and about the world that we all live in.

Rob Brooks: Excellent. We got a moment – can we take a couple of questions from the people?

Athena Aktipis: Absolutely! I would love to.

Audience Question: That was really good fun, thanks very much. Now seriously, what has motivated you to put this all together and go across the United States to do this? What’s on your mind?

Athena Aktipis: Well, honestly, when COVID happened, I realised that what I was doing for my own creative outlet was dance. And I realised that might not be something I’m going to be able to do for a long time, and so I turned back to music. Which was something that was important to me when I was a teenager.

And as we were sort of emerging from COVID, I got very integrated with many wonderful musicians in Arizona, and beyond. And it was really powerful for me in terms of both dealing with the challenges and building community.

And I was also really inspired by the sense of adventure that many of my musician friends, Ryan included, had about life and about, you know, dealing with things going wrong and things being challenging. And also the culture at many of the festivals, with music, with jamming, people will mix with people very different from them.

And I saw something really inspiring in that. And it started to really connect, then for me, with the research I had been doing on human co-operation. And seeing how the arts and music were being used in small-scale societies, actually, to deal with challenges. And so, I wanted to bring those things together.

Audience Question: So what, you felt, like this is a reaction of what you are feeling about people in the USA at the moment, there’s this tension? Confrontations?

Athena Aktipis: There certainly is a divisiveness that exists in the United States now, that I think is actually really unnecessary. Because, you know, when it comes down to it, people who have very different political beliefs, they can sit together and have a great conversation in a dive bar, or play music together in a festival, and see each other as humans. But, when people are interacting on platforms where the goal, really, is to foment conflict it creates a lot of problems. So I think coming together in person, doing things like playing music together...

So, a lot of the show, when we’re on the road and going across the United States, there’s a lot more music in it, it's maybe about half music. And we also talk about jamming and how jamming itself is a way of actually co-operating in an embodied way.

So, there are many other sort of threads and pieces that we’re bringing together and yeah, it is motivated by that.

Audience Question: To help to dispel the tensions, hopefully.

Athena Aktipis: I hope so, yeah.

Rob Brooks: So one of the things we’re getting here Athena is a focus on AI. How do we prep for the AI apocalypse, and I think, or I imagine that everything you’ve said tonight, just double it! In the AI apocalypse.

Athena Aktipis: Yeah, in my opinion, the AI apocalypse is not so much about, you know, are AI going to – is there going to be a robot apocalypse? AI robot apocalypse. Or, will AI itself directly or indirectly destroy us? But the AI apocalypse that I worry about is actually a sort of AI-human cooperation apocalypse. But, AI-human cooperation for the purposes of exploiting people. Or otherwise having a negative effect on them. So, I think to me, it’s people weaponising AI that I am most worried about.

And the best way that I think we can combat that is through building relationships with each other, directly. Through having time together in person. And through, you know, asking ourselves, what we actually want to think about as opposed to outsourcing a lot of our cognition to AI when we have the opportunity.

Rob Brooks: The questions bounce around so much that I had one that I was like, yes! I really want to ask that. Let me see if I can paraphrase what I remember. This is obviously, the apocalypse won't be distributed evenly… what do you – do you have any thoughts about, you know, about poverty and the apocalypse? Obviously we can prep and we have access to information and people and smart people and resources, are there any particular things you can think of that apply to folks who perhaps are in a difficult place, or to help folks?

Athena Aktipis: Absolutely. That is an extremely important problem, question, issue. And, there are a few things I would say. One is, you know, once you have got your own prepping act together, which 36% of you here, already do, amazing. One of the best things you can do is to look into your social network and ask people, do you feel prepared? Would you want some help? Could I help you with getting your shelter in place kit together?

You can, in your immediate network, try to help. Then you can also look at your community level. Are there people vulnerable in your community who might need assistance with having their shelter in place kit together, for example. And you can help them.

And on a bigger and maybe more abstract level, you know, what we see with how people help each other in times of need, is that they help. They do that without expecting anything in return, as long as they can do that without going below their own level of what they need. The thing is, though, what constitutes need? Right? We have to agree. Oh, this is what I need to be OK, if I have that, I am all right and I can help you to get above, you know, your level of where you can’t survive.

But for a lot of us, our notions of what we need has gotten very inflated. So, I think getting back to sort of the basics of, you know, what do you really need to be OK? You need shelter, food, water, you know, some good friends. And then being ready and willing to help others who have less. As long as you have those basic things you do need.

Rob Brooks: That really brings so much of the important work you have done with the book and The Human Generosity Project and with co-operation theory in general together. So I will draw a line under it here and thank a number of people, so hold your applause until the end.

I want to thank you all for joining us tonight at A Field Guide to the Apocalypse. I’d like to thank Ryan for not only joining Athena on stage but for being in Australia tonight. And to express our collective thanks for Athena for sharing so much with us all.  It’s been brilliant Ryan, it’s been brilliant Athena, they’re going to take us our with one musical number. And I will say, please put your hands together with a very warm thank you for them!

Applause

Athena Aktipis: So, this is a song about The Human Generosity Project. It’s a more than 10 year-long research project about how people help each other in times of need and I decided, well, what I really wanted to do was summarise it in a song. So, this is 'The Need-Based Transfer Song.' Are you ready to do a little osotua, Ryan?

Ryan Bitter: Yes.

Athena Aktipis: Alright!

Athena Aktipis sings:

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

The East African Maasai 
Live a pastoralist life 
They take care of their cattle 
Through good times and through strife 
 
And when someone gets unlucky 
On their network they will call 
And ask for help - for what they need - 
No matter how big or small 
 
And their Osotua partner 
Will happily reply 
I'll give what I can and from the heart
Because I don't want you to die 

Athena Aktipis and Ryan Bitter sing:

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Athena Aktipis sings:

In Pacific Island Fiji 
They Kerekere 
In any given village 
They ask and give freely 
 
But when a hurricane's a comin’ 
And every house is hit 
They Kerekere another village 
Where things haven't gone to shit 
 
And when times are good
they take the time to build relationships 
With communities that live nearby 
They cultivate kinship 
 
At ritual events they give 
Gifts of big whale teeth 
Wrapped in rope to signify 
The feelings underneath 
 
This binds them all together 
In bonds that you can see 
In mutual recognition 
Of their vulnerability 

Athena Aktipis and Ryan Bitter sing:
 
Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Ryan Bitter: We have dancers. Do you see that?

Athena Aktipis: I love it!

Athena Aktipis sings:

In the mountains of Uganda
Where the Ik people reside

Athena Aktipis: You scared them off, Ryan!

Athena Aktipis sings:

They share and say Tamor Marang
As the Kaiju spirits guide
Got an unfair reputation
From an anthropologist
Colin Turnbll who studied them in the midst of
Tragic politics

That displaced them from their hunting grounds
And took away their lives
Left them with one cup of rice
And left them all to die

He saw no co-operation
Because there was nothing to share
And decided they were selfish
Which really wasn’t fair

And then he called for their destruction
To disband their community
To eliminate their culture
But thankfully he didn’t succeed

And despite this tragic famine
Their co-operation came back
Because for the Ik
Tamor Marang, is a self evident fact

So don’t be an ass like Turnbull
And be sure to take this tip
And don’t assume the worst from others
Even in the apocalypse

Ryan Bitter: Show us your dance moves again.

Athena Aktipis and Ryan Bitter sing:

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

By now you might be wondering
Whether this pattern is unique
To small scale societies
Or if it also exists in societies that are western educated
Industrialised, rich and democratic

Well it’s my pleasure to tell you
That people everywhere
Engage in needs based transfers
When times are hard, they share

No neighbouring it happens
Throughout the American West
Neighbours helping neighbours
So no one is too stressed

And if you think about it
I’m sure you have a friend
You could call upon in a time of need
On whom you can depend

Athena Aktipis: Do you have one of those people, Ryan?

Ryan Bitter: Yeah. He thinks lizard people run the government.

Athena Aktipis: Oh.

Ryan Bitter: But he’s a good dude.

Athena Aktipis: Okay.

Athena Aktipis sings:

Because helping one another
Is just part of who we are
Whether you’re a hashtag yachtlifer
Or like to hang out in dive bars

Athena Aktipis: Or believe in lizard people or whatever. Yeah, ok.

Ryan Bitter: It's plausible.

Athena Aktipis sings:

So if you’re rich or pauper
A bleeding heart or a cheap skate
It really doesn’t matter
As long as you have
A feeling of shared fate

Because we’re all in this together
Whether we die or we survive
And with good risk pooling partners
We can share, adapt and thrive

Cause what good’s a private bunker
Or a stellar plan of your escape
When no one’s gonna make it alone
Especially not in outerspace

Athena Aktipis and Ryan Bitter sing:

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Athena Aktipis: Let's hear it, everybody!

Athena Aktipis and Ryan Bitter sing:

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Let's do a little Osotua
And you can Kerekere me 
Because Tomor Marang 
And good ol' fashioned Neighboring 

Applause

Centre for Ideas: Thank you for listening. This event is presented by the UNSW Centre for Ideas and UNSW Science as a part of National Science Week. For more information, visit unswcentreforideas.com, and don’t forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.